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BAMAD-94
Brit-Am Anthropology and DNA Update
14 June 2011, 12 Sivan 5771
Contents:
1. Reply to Henry Rhea re the Lack of R1b in Ancient Europe.
2. Valuable Reference Source : Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups.
3. Genetic make-up of Europe.
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1. Reply to Henry Rhea re the Lack of
R1b in Ancient Europe.
Henry Rhea wrote:
Hello
Yair.
With regard to the articles referenced in your
BAMAD
93 edition, the claim of #1 (2) "Virtual non-Existence of R1b in Ancient
Europe!" appears to be spurious and illogical. In the first place, the
website cited by no means shows all the available evidence or even a
reasonable sampling of dna
specimens to draw any conclusion. By your logic, that the chart shows a
single example of two specimens found in a cave dated to somewhere around 1000
BC means that no R1b carrying humans inhabited Europe prior to that date would
also have to mean that because that chart shows no other specimens between
those two and the 19 listed from the Basque ranges of Spain, circa 500-700
C.E.,
that therefore no R1b
haplotypes existed in Europe
during the intervening centuries. But we all know that to be
rediculous.
I don't know who created that chart nor for what purpose, but on that same
website I find this article, Celtic Tribes of the British Isles in which the
R1b haplotype
among the Celtic tribes of Britain go back ago back at least to 2,400 BC.
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Hello Yair. With regard to the articles referenced in your BAMAD 93 edition, the claim of #1 (2) "Virtual non-Existence of R1b in Ancient Europe!" appears to be spurious and illogical. In the first place, the website cited by no means shows all the available evidence or even a reasonable sampling of dna specimens to draw any conclusion. By your logic, that the chart shows a single example of two specimens found in a cave dated to somewhere around 1000 BC means that no R1b carrying humans inhabited Europe prior to that date would also have to mean that because that chart shows no other specimens between those two and the 19 listed from the Basque ranges of Spain, circa 500-700 C.E., that therefore no R1b haplotypes existed in Europe during the intervening centuries. But we all know that to be rediculous. I don't know who created that chart nor for what purpose, but on that same website I find this article, Celtic Tribes of the British Isles in which the R1b haplotype among the Celtic tribes of Britain go back ago back at least to 2,400 BC.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/
distantpast/celtictribes.shtml
Further, here is a link to a European Genetics and Anthropology Blog article which makes the claim that some Italian scientists report that European haplogroup R1b is Paleolithic.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/05/y-
dna-haplogroup-r1b-in-europe-is_02.html
While neither do I know whose blog that is nor whether the blogger has a particular point of view to attempt to "prove," it does help to show that choosing one's evidence to fit the conclusions already drawn, whether by yourself or possibly by this blogger either one is foolish and ultimately destructive to one's credibility in the long run.
Henry Rhea
Brit-Am Reply:
Henry Shalom,
Your query/challenge concerns 3 web-sites.
(a) The web site
"Ancient Western Eurasian DNA"
http://www.buildinghistory.org/
distantpast/ancientdna.shtml
whose results you doubted is (as far as we now) a reliable update.
It seems to show virtually the same results as other sites that also deal with the subject e.g.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/show
thread.php?25201-Ancient-European-DNA
YDNA is difficult to extract from older samplers.
Not many results are available.
In fact results are so few that nothing definite can be said.
Nevertheless based on what has been found European R1b in the past was much much rare than it is today.
The "experts" agree with this and now say it arrived in the Bronze Age but even that is hypothetical.
(b) You quoted from,
Celtic tribes of the British Isles
http://www.buildinghistory.org/
distantpast/celtictribes.shtml
in which it is implied that the R1b haplogroup among the Celtic tribes of Britain probably go back to about 2,400 BC.
This is not based on DNA tests but rather on conventional archaeological doctrines and extrapolation from them.
It is assumed that the "Celts" in the British Isles began with the Bell Beaker culture.
It is also assumed that they were all R1b like the Celts who came after them.
It is also assumed that they arrived in ca. 2400 BCE.
Ergo R1b must also have arrived in 2400 BCE!!!
This is mistaken.
According to the above,
If Bell Beaker Culture is dated much later (as it should be) then so should the arrival of R1b be dated later.
See:
"Brit-Am Now"-610
#1. Summary of and Commentary on Sweeney
http://britam.org/now/610Now.html
"Beaker people are found occupying exactly the same areas and villages as their Neolithic predecessors" [R.R. Hughes and D.R. Brothwell The Earliest Populations of Man in Europe, Western Asia and Northern Africa in The Cambridge Ancient History Vol.1 part 1 (3rd ed.) p.170]. Later authorities admitted that Beaker folk and their Stone Age "Neolithic" predecessors co-existed side by side in the same areas. Stone and Bronze Age cultures were not different from each other and did not take place at different times.
There is a principle of economy of deduction that most researchers today ignore.
Economy of Deduction says do not make it any more than it has to be.
Instead of ca.2,400 BCE it could just as well be anywhere from 500 to 150 BCE.
(c) The Italian scientist
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/05/y-dna-haplogroup-r1b-in-europe-is_02.html
quotes from R1b finds in Sardinia and Anatolia (Turkey) which he interprets as being very ancient.
The blog seems to doubt him.
We went to the source (as you could have done) discussed by the blog:
A Comparison of Y-Chromosome Variation in Sardinia and Anatolia Is More Consistent with Cultural Rather than Demic Diffusion of Agriculture
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3
Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0010419
Morelli et al. by their own admittance are engaging in conjecture. That may be why their claims are not to be found repeated elsewhere, at least not widely.
They seem to be taking present-day DNA findings in Sardinia and Turkey (Anatolia) and extrapolating backwards.
This may be interesting but it is not proof.
They are not referring to DNA test on archaeological findings.
Even if the claims were correct, so what?
It shows that some R1b may have existed in ancient times BUT not really in Europe itself and at a much lower rate than other haplogroups.
I also doubt that the Lichtenstein Cave (Lower Saxony, northwest Germany) finds date back to 1000 BCE.
Just because a group of people lived in caves does not make them cavemen.
Near Hebron today there is a whole village of cave-dwellers. Until recently such was the case also in Italy.
Caves are convenient ready-built dwellings with natural insulation easily expanded and adapted to human needs.
The main problem is the danger in some areas of Radon radiation which is a natural phenomenon.
Radon results from the natural decay and disintegration of rocks and minerals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radon
#According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency, radon is the second most frequent cause of lung cancer, after cigarette smoking #
2. Valuable Reference Source: Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups
3. Genetic make-up of Europe
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/show
thread.php?25106-Genetic-make-up-of-Europe
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