1. Steve Collins: Gog
2. Charlotte Mecklenburg: Joseph and Judah
3. Harold Hemenway: Were SCYTHIANS Israelites?
1. Steve Collins: Gog
From: Steve Collins
Subject: Re: "Brit-Am Now"-561: Gog Giggled
I've read the many comments on Gog recently with interest, and thought I'd offer my thoughts on the subject. I agree with Athol Bloomer's comments that the specific identity of Gog is not yet known; however I disagree that Gog will be revealed after the Two Sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37 is fulfilled. Ezekiel wrote down many prophecies and each one has its own unique subject matter and time-context. Ezekiel tells the reader when each new prophecy begins by using this distinctive phrase: "The word of the Lord came unto me saying" (KJV). There is a clean break between the Two Sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37 and the "Gog" prophecy in Ezekiel 38, showing that Ezekiel 38 is not a continuation of Ezekiel 37's prophecy. Ezekiel 38:1 has the phrase ("The word of the Lord came unto me saying") used by Ezekiel to show a previous prophecy has concluded and a new one is beginning. Ezekiel 38 has a different subject matter and a different time context than the two separate prophecies contained in Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel 38:8 and 16 indicate that Ezekiel 38 will be fulfilled in "the latter days" or "latter years," the same prophetic time period as Genesis 49, Jeremiah 30, etc.
I also agree with Robert Jones' comments about Russia, China, Iran and North Korea being part of Ezekiel 38's "evil alliance." China is definitely providing much of the momentum for this anti-Western, anti-American and anti-Israeli alliance. The target of their "latter day" attack is named "Israel," which identifies primarily the ten tribes of Israel. Genesis 48:14-16 show that the name "Israel" especially belongs on the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh. Yair Davidy and I (and others) have identified the USA, Great Britain and many European and Scandinavian nations as the modern ten tribes of Israel. Increasingly, world events confirm that there is a Divine Creator who is preparing Ezekiel 38-39 for fulfillment in the future ahead of us.
Some have wondered if George Bush will be "Gog." The context of Ezekiel's prophecy indicates that is impossible. George Bush is President of the USA, the main nation of the modern house of Israel. Since the Israelite nations will be the target of Gog's attack in the latter days, whoever is the American President when this event is fulfilled will be a target of Gog's alliance, not its leader.
2. Charlotte Mecklenburg: Joseph and Judah
From: Charlotte Mecklenburg
Subject: Re: "Brit-Am Now"-561: Gog Giggled
Two Subjects: Gog and Magog and Joseph helping Judah submitted by Charlotte Mecklenburg
I am inclined to agree with Athol Bloomer that Gog and Magog prophecy comes later than the immediate future. There may be some aspects of it that seem to take place but by and large I do believe it is later.
a. In Ezekiel's prophecy the people have been gathered from all nations to the mountains of Israel and have recovered from war. Zechariah says all the nations will be gathered around Israel for battle. Ezekiel's prophecy names the nations that participate rather than all of the nations.
b. It also says in future years that Gog will invade Israel.
c. The people will be living without gates, bars, and walls. With the present situation it hardly seems likely that Israel will drop their walls and safety protections that they rely on for protection.
d. Ezekiel says when Gog and Magog come against God's people God will show how holy he is through his people so that the other nations will know God.
I believe the prophecies given in the Tanach cover every period of life on earth until what Daniel says is fulfilled. He says all sin will come to an end and wickedness will be atoned for and everlasting righteousness exists.
Joseph helping Judah.
I do believe we see a phenomenon where things that nations do are the big picture and look like the fulfillment of prophecy. These things are easy to see. So when we say the U.S. and Britain and other nations associated with them are Joseph and they do certain things for Judah then prophecy regarding this is fulfilled. Then when the president or State department does things that seem to indicate differently it is hard to understand what is happening. I believe this kind of prophecy is fulfilled in a limited sense. However, since Joseph is not 100 percent of the people in these nations, we can not expect every detail of prophecy to be fulfilled by these nations in respect to this relationship of Joseph and Judah.
I believe what is harder to see but what will bring about the actual fulfillment of these prophecies are those who really are dedicated to God and want to see his will done here on earth standing apart from the way of the nations they live in. Those in Judah who fall into this category are going to recognize that there are those in Joseph who are like minded and that there is a need for the two to stand together because the whole world is opposed to their kind of thinking.
The other witness is those of Joseph who live in the nations but are anxious to be identified with God's ways and see his will accomplished first in Israel then in the rest of the world. We are being rebuffed and put down here in America, so I can't imagine what it is like in the other nations. This nation started out basing their constitution on God's Word and the Bible was the textbook of the schools so the children growing up would know how to govern the land. We are a long shot from that now.
When these two witnesses get together it will bring a strength to both to stand against all the things this world wants to throw at us. This way the world will know there is another way to view things. Only those in Spiritual leadership can make the decisions that will bring about this kind of coalition.
3. Harold Hemenway: Were SCYTHIANS Israelites?
From: Harold Hemenway
When Jacob built shelters for his cattle in Jordan, he called the place "SUCCOTH" (Heb. "Cottages" or "Huts") (Gen. 33:17). When Israel dwelt in Egypt, she named a town "SUCCOTH" (Ex. 12:37). In Palestine, the city of "SUCCOTH" was given to the tribe of Gad (Josh. 13:27). Later, Israel was deported to Media (2 Ki. 18:11) which is the same place that Diodorus Siculus says the "SCYTHIANS" had their origin "on the Araxes" River (2:3). Herodotus then says the SCYTHIANS moved "across the Araxes into Cimmeria" (the Crimea) (4:11). In 2 Esdras 13:40-46 we read that Israelites traveled this same route. Later, Germany was known as "SCYTHIA" (Nennius' History of the Britons 31,37 & 50). Then Scandinavia was anciently called "SCATHAnavia." Ireland was known as "SCOTIA Major" and Scotland was called "SCOTIA Minor" (Venerable Bede & Nennius). Strabo says, "All the nations toward the northern parts, the ancient Greek writers call SCYTHIANS" (11:507).
Israelites, Scythians and Saxons Without A King
The following facts connect both Saxons and Scythians with Israel. Israel was to be "many days WITHOUT A KING" (Hos. 3:4) "The most ancient account of the Saxon government on the continent exists in this short but expressive passage of Bede: 'The ancient SAXON'S HAVE NO KING, but many chiefs set over their people, who, when war presses, draw lots equally, and whomsoever the chance points out, they all follow as leader, and obey during the war. The war concluded, all the chiefs become again of equal power." In the Lindenb. Gloss. 1347, the following occurs: 'TWELVE Ethelings governed over the land of the Saxons; and whenever war arose in that land, the Saxons chose one of the TWELVE to be king while the war lasted; when the war was finished, the TWELVE became alike.'" (Sharon Turner's Anglo-Saxons 1:207)
Israelites, Scythians and Saxons Had Divining Rods
The SAXON custom of DIVINING by RODS or "AUGURY by WANDS" (Tacitus' Germania 9:10) can be traced to the Israelite practice mentioned in Hosea 4:12 which says, "My people ask counsel of their STOCKS, and their STAFF declareth unto them." "They cut a small branch of a fruit-tree into TWIGS, marked them, and scattered them at random on a white vest. The priest, if it were a public COUNCIL, or the father, at a private CONSULTATION, prayed, gazed at heaven, drew each three times, and interpreted according to the mark previously impressed. Alfred also says they cast lots with TWIGS (Sharon Turner's Anglo Saxons 1:223). Herodotus says, "SCYTHIA has an abundance of soothsayers who foretell the future by means of a number of WILLOW WANDS. A large bundle of these WANDS is brought and laid on the ground. The soothsayer unties the bundle, and places each wand by itself, at the same time uttering his prophecy" (Herod. 4:67).
Israelites, Scythians and Saxons Had Similar Religions
The religion of Odin included the belief in a beneficent ALL-FATHER in HEAVEN, who made the heaven, and earth, and air out of nothing; in the future purifying the world by FIRE, a catastrophe connected with the embodiment of evil., who is frequently described as a SERPENT or a DRAGON; in a NEW WORLD that is TO COME, and in the advent of "the POWERFUL ONE" for JUDGMENT.
Israelites and Scythians Had Groves But No Images
A German (Scythian) custom mentioned in Tacitus' Germania 9:10 that seems to be Israelite is as follows:"The deities of the Germans are NOT confined WITHIN WALLS, nor FASHIONED INTO any mortal SHAPES; they hallow GROVES and WOODS, and call by the name of gods that hidden presence which is felt by reverence alone." Many passages in the Bible mention "GROVES" as places of Israelite worship (1 Kings 14:15) and the biblical command to "not make unto thee any GRAVEN IMAGE or any LIKENESS of ANYTHING" is also well known. Immediately before the captivity, "Ephraim was joined to IDOLS," but neither in Scythia nor in Germany did they have IMAGES so they must have repented somewhat. Neither did they have kings for "the children of Israel shall abide many days WITHOUT A KING, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and WITHOUT AN IMAGE, and without an ephod, and without teraphim" (Hos. 3:4).Scythians made no idols (Herodotus 4:59).
Israelites-Scythians-Saxons Were Civilized, Wise and Unconquerable
"Round the Black Sea ... are to be found, if we EXCEPT SCYTHIA, the most uncivilized nations in the world. No one could claim that the rest have any of the arts of civilized life, or have produced any man of distinction" (Her. 4:46). Aeschylus says "The SACAE (or SCUTHS) were noted for their GOOD LAWS, and were preeminently a RIGHTEOUS people." Colossians 3:11 contrasts Barbarians with SCYTHIANS. Thucydides says, "In respect of MILITARY STRENGTH and NUMBER of SOLDIERS, NO single NATION, either in Europe or Asia, could MATCH the SCUTHS" (Thuc. 2:97 spoken about 420 B.C.). As Psalm 105:20 says, "He INCREASED his people Israel greatly, and made them STRONGER than their enemies." Herodotus adds, "They have, in one respect ... shown themselves WISER than any other nation upon the face of the earth.... Possessing no houses but waggons, and carrying these about wherever they go, accustomed, one and all, to fight on horseback with bows and arrows, and dependent for their food not upon agriculture but upon their cattl
e: how can they fail of being UNCONQUERABLE, and even UNASSAILABLE?" (4:46). "NO WEAPON that is formed AGAINST THEE shall PROSPER" (Isa. 54:17).
Their oaths were accompanied by CEREMONIES IDENTICAL WITH those of the MEDES; they used skulls as drinking cups, like the Northmen of later years; their weapons were the spear, the battle-axe and the bow; they made BOOTHES like the Israelites; they had fables of GRIFFINS, the representations of which on the Scythian tombs are almost exactly like the WINGED LIONS of the Assyrians.
Israelites and Scythians Boiled Meat By Burning Bones
Describing their sacrifices, Herodotus says, "After flaying the beasts, they take out all the bones, and put the flesh into BOILERS or cauldrons of a large size, then placing the BONES of the animals beneath the cauldron, they set them ALIGHT, and so BOIL the meat." (Her. 4:61) In Ezekiel 24:5 we read, "take the choice of the flock, and BURN also the BONES under it, and make it BOIL well." Professor Rawlinson thinks both these passages refer to the same custom.
Israelites and Scythians Didn't Eat Pigs
Finally Herodotus says regarding sacrifices,"they NEVER USE SWINE; nor, indeed, is it their wont to breed them in any part of their country" (Her. 4:63). Yes "the SWINE ... IS UNCLEAN to you" (Lev. 11:7). Strabo says of the Dacians "that the care of WORSHIPPING the Supreme Being is GREAT among this nation, is not to be doubted, after what Posidonius has related, 'and they even ABSTAIN FROM ANIMAL FOOD from religious motives,' as likewise on account of the testimony of other historians" (Strabo 7:3:4).
Israelites and Scythians Dwelt in Caves Without Flax
Herodotus says, "HEMP groweth abundantly in this land of Scythia, and of this the people MAKE GARMENTS that are very like to garments made of FLAX. These people possess neither houses, cities, nor cultivated land: but lived in waggons and on the produce of their cattle." This reminds us of Hosea 2:2-14 which says, "Plead with your mother, plead ... Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a DRY LAND, and slay her with thirst ... For she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink ... For she did not know that I gave her corn, ands wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal. Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and My wine in the season thereof, and will RECOVER my wool and MY FLAXgiven to cover her nakedness." Israel dwelt among the monuments -- the BARROWS and MOUNDS of Southern Russia, the CAVES in which the Getae lived in memory of that to which Zalmoxis retired -- and ate unclean food. Therefore Isaiah 65:4 says Israelites "remain among the GRAVES, and lodge in the MONUMENTS; that eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels." Plint N.H. 4:12 calls them "CAVE-DWELLERS."
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