1. Kyna: Deeds to the land
2. Gog and Magog
3. Dark element among the Welsh
4. Sharon Lindstrom: Teachings on Ezekiel
1. From: kyna
Subject: Deeds to the land
Yair: The reader's commentary on the
sale of Anathoth, as recorded in
Jeremiah, got me as well when you first posted it. We have deeds to Hevron,
Jerusalem, Anathoth . . . witnessed by God himself. Regarding the Bible
Belt commentary: it is true. The East coast is the first with class, the
West coast on all things faddish and the Bible Belt is always the leader in
religious things. The Bible Belt is the area with people rising up studying
and pressing for a return to Torah; studying Judaism. The effects of the
Bible Belt was demonstrated yesterday when Californian Jewish Democrats
lined up to register as Republicans because of Bush's stand for Israel.
Started here in the BB and is causing a Democratic party crisis.
It is interesting
that we get a few posts on the same subject all about the same time:
The Red Jews : Antisemitism in an Apocalyptic Age 1200-1600 by Andrew Colin Gow is a very interesting book and contains valuable material - I quoted the work in both "The Tribes" (2nd edition p.313) and in Ephraim.
The book repeats the tradition that the Lost Ten tribes had been in Scythia. This was true but most of these Israelites moved out and migrated westward. Those that remained joined the Khazars who mostly converted to Judaism or their descendants became Subbotniks who again either converted to Judaism or migrated to America.
From "The Tribes":
<<Early tradition spoke of the Lost Ten Tribes being in the
Scythian area. This has been discussed by Andrew Colin Gow, "The Red Jews.
Anti-Semitism in an Apocalyptic Age 1200-1600" NY 1995). Already in the
300s ce the Latin Tiburtine Sibyl spoke of the anti-Christ being from the
Tribe of Dan and of Alexander, the Indian King who shut up Gog and Magog in
the far north. Josephus (Jewish Wars vii;7;4) says that Alexander the
Great used iron gates to close up mountain passes so that the Scythians
would not break into the civilised world. Elsewhere (Antiquities 1;b;i) he
identifies the Scyths with Magog. From the 1100s ce Gog and Magog were
identified as the Lost Ten Tribes. Peter Comestor (ca. 1165) identified the
Lost Ten Tribes with Gog and Magog whom Alexander had locked up behind iron
gates in the mountains. The whole area of Scythia even Georgia in the
Caucasus in Medieval writings could be referred to as India. The area of
the Ten Tribes was referred to as Caspia apparently due to its proximity to
the Caspian Sea. The Lost Ten Tribes were called "Red Jews" and were
described as all having Red Hair. Red Hair in the Middle Ages especially in
Germany was considered a negative characteristic and associated with the
Jews and with Judas. The Anti-Christ and Judas were depicted as both having
red hair and as both coming from the Tribe of Dan. The Jews also believed
the Lost Ten Tribes to be in Scythia, in the region by the Caspian
Sea. This belief was widespread and lasted up to ca 1600 ce. Gow quotes
David Kaufman (1892): The legend of the Ten Tribes as future deliverers of
Israel was "a faith that was slumbering in the popular Jewish consciousness
all through the Middle Ages" (JQR, iv, 503-508).Passau Anonymous (1330):
"The Jews and many Judaising Christians imagine that this people [i.e. The
Ten Tribes] is holy; they would be glad if they were to come, and would
join their ranks immediately". In Germany the Jews were believed to be in
league with the devil and to be plotting with the "Red Jews" meaning the
Ten Tribes to overthrow Christendom. Luther identified Gog and Magog with
the Turks and said they were descended from "Tatars or Red Jews." Christian
Gerson of Reckinghausen (a Jewish convert to Christianity, 1607) said:
"Many Jews believe that the Ten Tribes whom the king Salmanessar led away
are still together and live behind the dark mountains called the Caspian
Mountains...Many Christians also talk about the Red Jews, whom they have
never seen, whence comes the wrongheaded notion, that the Messiah might
still be born from the tribe of Judah, from the Red Jews.” It should be
noted that the Lost Ten Tribes and Gog and Magog were also identified with
the Goths most of whom at this stage had already settled in Sweden.>>
<<At all events Jewish sources place part of the Tribe of Menasseh in the
same region wherein history records the Amyrgioi (Mercian Saxons) to have
been. Local names for cities and regions in the area, such as Maruka and
Maracanda are derived from the name "Machir".>>
From Ephraim chapter
<<The British and Americans traditionally have always shown an
interest in the Lost Ten Tribes. They either identified themselves as Lost
Israelites or enthusiastically searched for them elsewhere. Ideas and
"proofs" that some obscure people somewhere are Lost Ten Tribes people
usually originate from the conclusions of Jewish or “Anglo-Saxon”
eccentrics. The finding of the Lost Ten Tribes was always considered a
worthwhile effort from which only good could spring. In Germany on the
other hand the Lost Ten Tribes were depicted as a menace and as the
<<Historically, the Goths and Nephtalites who were of Israelite
origin had migrated to Scandinavia and the west. They had become identified
in popular thought with Gog and Magog as well as with the Lost Ten Tribes
of Israel and illogical as it may seem the two concepts had merged. German
Medieval Literature dwelt on the subject of the Red Jews, the Lost Ten
Tribes, and the Israelite forces (in their view) of Gog and Magog all of
whom they considered to be one ultimate menace to themselves and to their
view of civilization. This has been thoroughly documented and illustrated
in detail by ANDREW C. GOW, The Red Jews. Antisemitism in an Apocalyptic
Age 1200-1600, U.S.A. The populations of all western nations are very
mixed. Before the Second World War in Germany there were Germans who
strongly opposed the Nazis. In Britain there were a few British aristocrats
who were pro-German. In the U.S.A. there were Americans who wanted to see
America on Germany's side and numerous anti-Semites*k. Once their
respective nations had entered the War in most cases the above waverers put
their preferences aside and did their utmost to ensure that their own
countries won. In other words what matters in history is which national
tendency is going to be the determining factor. Whether a nation is of
homogeneous origins or not is less important than the unity of purpose it
derives from its citizens and the nature of this purpose. A similar
observation may well hold in prophecy. It does not therefore matter so much
what exact percentage of a people really are descended from Joseph or from
Edom as long as the leading elements are dominated by one or other of the
two and all the rest follow suit. “Leading elements” may also be understood
to be those who determine the national character rather than, or as well
as, those who stand at the top.>>
We mentioned above
that Gog and Magog were linked conceptually with the
whereabouts of the Lost Ten Tribes.
It is worthwhile to note in this regard that Gog and Magog are also connected in mythology with Britain, cf excerpts from the following post.
Ancient peoples were familiar with the
name of Japheth. The Greeks
called him Iapetos. Other traditions which have been carried over the
centuries has been those associating some European Royal lines to
Japheth. There have been many works referring to this, including Bill
Cooper's After the Flood. Similarly, there have been various Jewish
traditions of the Middle Ages as well as Christian traditions attempting
to derive the European peoples from Japheth. But this is in error.
Indeed, the earliest post-flood persons residing in the British Isles
and other parts of Europe were a few Mongoloids, some Turkic peoples and
perhaps some fairer descendants of Japheth. Later the Kelts, Angles,
Saxons and Normans conquered the British Isles and the tiny remnants of
Japheth were overwhelmed, driven out or bred out.
For instance, we have the Gog and Magog undulating chalk hills near
Cambridge, Gog Magog rock carvings in the Prescelly Hills,
Pembrokeshire, giant earthworks bearing this name in Somerset, an oak
forest in North Hampshire called by this name, a similar forest in
Glastonbury and of course we have the famous two statues known as Gog
and Magog in the Guildhall, London which were erected centuries ago, hit
by an air raid in 1940 but replaced in 1953. Indeed, according to one
"In the Welsh language the word for north is Gogledd, pronounced Gogleth
. Magog means very big, great".
This may have given rise to the traditions that the Western Europeans
descend from Japheth.
We see from the above that both the
Lost Ten tribes and the Goths and
Khazars and British are linked with Gog and Magog in lregend since
historically there was a geographical connection. The British, Goths, and
Khazars were descended from Israelite Tribes.
Gog and Magog in the Biblical sense is to be linked with Russia and the
so-called "Mongolian" peoples:
cf. excerpts from the post regarding Georgia in southern Russia below which
may also have something in it though the Georgians on the whole are not in my
opinion from Gog but from another source.
-- James Lloyd
Comment by Yair:
Georgia may be part of the forces of Gog and Magog but it is not the main entity.
Who Gog and Magog really will be is not directly connected to Brit-Am studies.
Based on my own knowledge my impression is that Gog and Magog probably refers Russia
and the Eastern nations.
The Russians themselves in the Middle Ages identified with Gog and Magog and the task entailed suits certain aspects of the Russian National character.
See the chapter on Russia in Leo Poliakov, "The Aryan Myth".
"And I will make of you a great nation.
And I will bless you and make your
And you shall be a blessing.
"And I will bless they who bless you, and curse him who curses you.
And in you shall all the families of the earth be blessed.