Date: 08/06/2002 2:17:28 AM Central Daylight Time
1. Future Messiahs from Manassah, from
Ephraim, and from Judah
2. Comparison of Nationalist Songs
sung to the Same Tune
1. Future Messiahs from Manassah, from
Ephraim, and from Judah
Question and Answer no 1 is given and
is a repetition from previous
correspondence
With David Sykes, Then Question and
Answer no 2 is given in which David
Sykes opens our eyes to a new source
which we have translated and posted.
Question and Answer no 1
Subject: "Brit-Am Now"-61
>4. Subject: comments/questions To:
britam@netvision.net.il
>Hi
>I have been a part of the e-mail correspondence
for a while now and was
hoping i would come >across certain
issues that others would have asked but
since this is not the case I would
like to >pose the following
>1)does Brit Am have a position on
Menashe Ben Israel's theories that at
one time the continents >were connected
specifically to south america and
that the lost tribes followed a migration
pattern >that started in
Afghanistan(populated largely by Ephraim
who were known for their warlike
<impetuousness) and ending with
the American Indian?
>2)There is a Midrash that makes reference
to a third Messiah from menashe
--this idea does not >seem to have
taken hold in lore--any further
knowledge on this area?
>please advise
>Sincerely yours
>David M
>Answers: Regarding question no.1 we
are skeptical.
>Question no.2 In general the sources
suggest two future messiahs:
>a. Messiah son of David from Judah.
>b.Messiah ben Joseph who however is
usually described as being from Ephraim.
>There are sources that speak of future
great leaders such as Elijah and a
future High Priest who >also has messianic
qualities.
>I have never so far come across a
reference to a Messiah from Menasseh
but if there is such a >source I would
be very interested.
Question and Answer no 2
Dear Yair,
The reason I mentioned Menashe Ben Israel's
theory is that he clearly is an
intellectual heavyweight and while
I am clearly not an expert on history,
my understanding was that his theory
was the one most widely accepted by
convention and traditional circles
up to the modern era--of course like all
else, it was put forth as a theory,
although i find it interesting that
Lord ?Killingsborough?, seemd to have
independently come up with a similar
notion about the lost tribes
Regarding Messianic concepts, I too
was brought up in the conventional
traditional view of 2 messiahs, one
from Joseph, accepted to be from
Ephraim, and one from Judah, aside
form the role of Elijah who also is
involved as a herald of sorts
in my weekly review of the Midrash
Rabbah I came accross in Parashat Naso,
chapter XIV that there were 4 annointed
saviors designated
1)Elijah
2)Messiah from Menashe
3)Messiah annointed for war from Ephraim
4) Messiah from David, the "great redeemer"
Given i had not seen this before i
was wondering if you had a take on this
and why this was not spoken of more
in Rabbinic literature, unless of
course the Chazal had a competing tradition
that they felt was more widely
accepted and accurate--I really don't
know
G-d Bless
David M Sykes
Answer by Brit-Am: We looked up the
source and it does mentioned a future
redeemer from Manassah alongside Elijah,
an Annoited Messiah for War from Ephraim,
and the Ultimate Redeemer
descended from David of Judah.
This is what the source says:
Midrash (Numbers) Naso 14;1:
<<... "GILEAD IS MINE, AND MANASSEH
IS MINE; EPHRAIM ALSO IS THE STRENGTH
OF MINE HEAD; JUDAH IS MY LAWGIVER"
[Psalms 60:7].
<<"GILEAD IS MINE", this is Eliyahu
who dwelt in Gilead.
"MANASSEH IS MINE", this is the Messiah
who comes from the descendants of
Manassah as it says, ["GIVE EAR, O
SHEPHERD OF ISRAEL, THOU THAT LEADEST
JOSEPH LIKE A FLOCK; THOU THAT DWELLEST
BETWEEN THE CHERUBIMS, SHINE
FORTH.] "BEFORE EPHRAIM AND BENJAMIN
AND MANASSEH STIR UP THY STRENGTH, AND
COME AND SAVE US" [Psalms 80:1-2].
"EPHRAIM ALSO IS THE STRENGTH OF MINE
HEAD;" [Psalms 60:7]. This is the
Annoited One [Messiah] for War who
comes from Ephraim as it says, "HIS
GLORY IS LIKE THE FIRSTLING OF HIS
BULLOCK" [Deuteronomy 33:17].
JUDAH IS MY LAWGIVER" [Psalms 60:7].
This is the Final Deliverer (Redeemer)
who comes from the descendants of David>>.
2. Comparison of Nationalist Songs sung
to the Same Tune
From: Vic Summerour
Subject: Re: "Brit-Am Now"-57
"Brit-Am Now"-57
Contents:
7.The Identity of Menasseh with the
USA.
Keeping in mind the characteristics
attributed to Ephraim and Manasseh, it
is interesting to compare and contrast
the lyrics of two "national" songs,
one for the USA and the other for Britain,
both sung to the same music.
My Country , 'Tis of Thee
http://ingeb.org/spiritua/mycountr.html
God save the King/Queen
http://ingeb.org/songs/godsaveo.html
There do appear to be minor differences
in the music, but the tune is
essentially the same between the two
songs.
My Country , 'Tis of Thee
http://ingeb.org/spiritua/mycountr.html
My Country, 'Tis of Thee
Melody - England, 18th century Henry Carey?
1-2:Samuel Francis Smith; 3-4:Henry van Dyke
1. My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing:
Land where my father's died,
Land of the pilgrims' pride,
From ev'ry mountainside
Let freedom ring!
2. My native country thee,
Land of the noble free,
Thy name I love:
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills;
My heart with rapture thrills
Like that above.
3. Let music swell the breeze,
And ring from all the trees
Sweet freedom's song:
Let mortal tongues awake;
Let all that breathe partake;
Let rocks their silence break,
The sound prolong.
4. Our fathers' God, to Thee,
Author of liberty,
To Thee we sing:
Long may our land be bright
With freedom's holy light;
Protect us by Thy might,
Great God, our King!
God save the King/Queen
http://ingeb.org/songs/godsaveo.html
1. God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!
2. O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!
3. Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!
4. Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.
5. From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!
6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!
This Text and Tune is often credited
to Henry Carey, 1740, although there
is controversy with many votes, including
the British monarchy's, for
anonymous. On official occasions, only
the first verse is usually sung, and
occasionally verse 3. The tune has
been used by many countries for anthems
and hymns.
According to the French encyclopaedia,
Quid, the music is by Giam Battista
Lulli (Jean-Baptiste Lully in the French
form). It was loosely based on a
hymn sung when the (French) king arrived
at an event, Domine Salvum Fac
Regem. When Louis XIV was scheduled
to open the educational institution at
St-Cyr (1686), his mistress (later,
queen), the Marquise de Maintenon,
commissioned Lully to write the tune
to be sung by the pupils as Dieu
Prote`ge le Roi. The French, apparently,
did not use it again until 1745 at
which time the Old Pretender, claiming
to be King James III of England, was
organising his rebellion from France
(he lived at St-Germain-de-Laye).
Madame de Maintenon presented him with
the words and music as his National
Anthem. (It is not clear who wrote
the English words but the implication is
that Mme de Maintenon either wrote
them herself or commissioned them.) The
song was sung for the first time in
Britain when Bonnie Prince Charlie
landed in Scotland. There are apparently
some legal testaments to this story.