1. Summary of Points Made by Steven Colllins and David Skelly
2. Ephraim "set before" Manasseh
3. Eagle-and-arrows symbol of Massagetae of Menasseh
4. Britain and her offspring a “multitude” of nations
5. Number 13 in USA symbolism indicates Menasseh
7. Monarchs in UK.
8. Summary of some of the Points Made by David Skelly:
9. Jeroboam of Ephraim A Rebel like Americans
10. Ephraim exercises his rights as God's firstborn today
12. Ephraim was called an arrow
13. "Appoint a place for my people Israel" is the USA
14. The ten thousands of Ephraim and the thousands of Manasseh
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:21 am
Summary of Points Made by Steven Colllins and David Skelly
A. re "Menasseh"?
Summary of Points Made by Steven Colllins:
Israel said it was God's will that Ephraim would be "set before"
Manasseh (Gen. 49:20). In view of this, Ephraim should receive the greater
blessing and receive it "before" Manasseh.
In world history, the British Empire dominated world geopolitics for
Centuries. The USA came later and had been dominant so far for a much
The present eagle-and-arrows symbol of the USA was that of the Scythian
Masssagetae who were from Menasseh.
Ephraim dominated the Parthian Empire, which bore the names of the clans of
Ephraim among its founding groups. Its brother empire, Scythia, was
dominated by the Massagetae (Manasseh). The eagle (and the war sign of a
clump of arrows) was one of the primary heraldic symbols of the
Scythians/Massagetae. The eagle symbolism was not nearly as evident in
Ephraim/Parthia. Therefore, the eagle and clump of arrows symbolism
identifies Manasseh, not Ephraim. These symbols are clearly identified with
Britain and her offspring are a "multitude" of nations like Ephraim was to
be whereas the USA is one United nation as behooves Menasseh.
<<This strongly identifies the
USA as Manasseh because Gen. 48:19-20 prophesied Manasseh would become "a
people" (one nation) but Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations." >>
The significance of the number 13 in USA symbolism would be important from
the point of view of Menasseh rather than Ephraim since Ephraim had already
been guaranteed the preeminence.
blessing divided Joseph into two tribes, it is clear that the placement of
his right hand on Ephraim's head made Ephraim the prime inheritor of the
blessing and Manasseh the secondary inheritor of the blessing. This,
inevitably, retained Ephraim as the 12th tribe (the dominant blessing) but
it "grandfathered in" Manasseh as a new 13th tribe.
Regarding Deuteronomy 33:17:
<<This verse cannot possibly mean that God intended
Ephraim's population to be ten times that of Manasseh! >>
Biblically the numbers were always about equal or Menasseh was more
populous. At present Israelite US Americans about equal in numbers to
British related ones.
The numbers refer to people ruled over.
Comment by Yair Davidiy: I would not
necessarily agree with this
Monarchs in UK.
<<Also, in the divided kingdom of Israel, the capital city was Samaria,
located in the tribe of Ephraim's territory. The Kings of Israel always
were seated in the territory of Ephraim, the leading tribe!
B. re "Menasseh"?
Summary of Some of the Points Made by David Skelly
<<I believe that America is Joseph
with pretty much equal proportions of
Ephraim and Manasseh while Britain, New Zealand and Australia are Ephraimite
<<I believe that the Angles represent
both Ephraimites and Manessahites
because Angle comes from the Hebrew word Aegel (young bull) and the wild ox
of Deuteronomy 33 represented Ephraim and Manesseh. The term Saxon comes
from Isaac. The house of Isaac in scripture represented all Israel with
Ephraim being the chief tribe (Amos 7).
1. Jeroboam of Ephraim rebelled against
the House of Davidi just as
Americans rebelled against King of England.
<<Nothing has changed, Ephraimites
took the lead in rebelling against king
George III just as Jeroboam the Ephraimite took the lead in rebelling
against Rehoboam. There is no record in scripture of any Manassehite taking
the lead in rebelling against any Israelite king. Absolutely none.>>
<<Isaiah 7:17 was very clear when
it said that "Ephraim departed from Judah".
It was Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim that led the rebellion against
Rehoboam of the house of David.>>
<<There is nowhere in the Bible where is says that Manasseh will be a nation.
Genesis 48:19 says that Manasseh "also shall become a PEOPLE, and he also
shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and
his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." Manasseh becomes a
people while Ephraim becomes a multitude of nations. I believe that
Manasseh is a great people under Ephraimite leadership. Ephraim means
doubly fruitful. He was fruitful once in the British Commonwealth of
nations and fruitful the second time in the United States of America.
Manasseh is a great people under the shadow of Ephraim as Ephraim holds the
stick of rulership over all the house of Joseph including Manasseh.
Manasseh is never called a nation in scripture.
<<The stick of Joseph is in the
hands of Ephraim. Ephraim rules.
In Jeremiah 31:9 God said that Ephraim is 'MY firstborn' after the
Israelites were taken into captivity by the Assyrians. Ephraim exercises
his rights as God's firstborn today in dominating the ten lost tribes of
Comment by Yair Davidiy: Menasseh however
in Biblical Israel was a powerful
Israelite tribe and in effect (see our book "Joseph") probably the most
powerful and influential tribe out of all the ten northern tribes.
<<Deuteronomy 33:17 talks about the ten thousands of Ephraim and the thousands
of Manasseh. This means that the descendants of Ephraim today might even
outnumber the descendants of Manasseh by 10 to 1.>>
<<The stick of Joseph is in the
of Ephraim and not Manasseh. Consequently Ephraim dominates all the
descendants of Joseph including Manasseh because he has the stick of Joseph.
This is the stick of rulership and authority.>>
In Zechariah 9:13, 14 Ephraim was called an arrow that went forth as
lightening. Manasseh was never called an arrow in scripture. There are
thirteen arrows in the claw of an eagle in the American coat of arms. The
thirteen arrows represent Ephraim the 13th tribal ancestor who was born and
represent the rebellion that was led by Ephraimites against the Judean king
of England. The arrow or arrows are connected with Ephraim in the Bible
rather than Manasseh.
<<I believe that the US is in a special way the house of Israel with
representatives of all 12 tribes having migrated there. 2 Samuel 7:10 says
"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them,
that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall
the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,". While
dwelling in the land of Israel God said that he would appoint a place for
Israel. This was not the land of Israel in the Middle East. This was a
land that they were not dwelling in at that time. I understand this land to
be North America.
<<Deuteronomy 33:13-17 says "And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his
land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that
coucheth beneath, And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and
for the precious things put forth by the moon, And for the chief things of
the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills, And
for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good
will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of
Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his
brethren. His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are
like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to
the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they
are the thousands of Manasseh." The land of Joseph here refers to England,
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United States. But this passage has
a special reference to the United States. The United States more than any
other Josephite nation has enjoyed the prosperity and riches mentioned in
this passage. Now the main inhabitants of the land of Joseph are the ten
thousands of Ephraim and the thousands of Manasseh. This implies that there
are many more descendants of Ephraim than Manasseh today. There are
possibly up to ten times more descendants of Ephraim than Manasseh living in
the lands of Joseph today.