. The Great Tartan Disputation. Round Six.

The Great Tartan Disputation: Round Six.

We are continuing our Disputation with TG. Below is Round Six.
The Points of contention concern the subject matter of our article Joseph and the Scottish Tartan.

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The Great Tartan Disputation: Round Six

TG wrote:
No, you are not at my level

Brit-Am Replies:
OK, TG. I do not mind, just as long as I do not have to sit next to you.

TG wrote:

There is no mysticism in the Torah, not even the Zohar.
The Greek word mystikos was borrowed from the Hebrew expression, like many others, with a loss of meaning and a lack of understanding of what its all about. It comes from mi shtei kos  [Who Drinks from the Glass? A misspelling?] - a reference to shel yain [From Wine?].

Brit-Am Replies:
I do not know what you are quoting from TG but it sounds like bad Hebrew or you have inadvertently omitted words or misspelt them?

TG wrote:

What exactly that means I'm not going into,

Brit-Am Replies:
Natually TG. You are being mysterious and supercilious as usual.

TG wrote:

but the Ancient Greeks completely failed to grasp the Jewish way of thinking and expressing ideas. Over the millennial span of the past the confusion persisted and was added to until all original meaning was completely lost. As of now the idea of  Kaballah as "Jewish mysticism" is something that makes no sense what so ever, and has been built into something that is completely devoid of the original purpose with which it was imbued.

Brit-Am Replies:
TG, I am concerned for you. We brought up the word mystery because your intentions and terms of reference suddenly turned mysterious.
You jumped on the word and assumed we were appealing to "mysticism" as an authoritative source for Brit-Am beliefs. This we have not done.

Yair Davidiy, personally, does believe in Jewish Mysticism but does not occupy himself with it.
It has nothing to with Brit-Am, the Lost Ten Tribes Movement, though it could well confirm Brit-Am beliefs. You brought it up. We did not.
It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You present yourself as an Orthodox Believing Jew and speak to us as if we are not quite Kosher. You however are the one who implied that the Sages (in
Midrash Tanchuma) had been mislead due to Greek pagan influence. Now you are denying Kabbalah and Jewish tradition. You also choose to ignore the Talmudic Commentary that you yourself quoted from and the Rabbinical Commentaries we referred to.
You seem to believe in some kind of Judaism without Jews?

TG wrote:
You do not give 'what exits', [i.e. exists] but what you manage to piece together. Whatever truth there is in the world is derived only from the Torah. However, your 'analysis' is almost completely devoid of Torah she ba'al'peh [Torah Derived from the Oral Law], and without that its not possible to understand TaNaKh from which you so freely quote.

There were many claims by Christian monarchs who begun to make claims to their birthright links to Jewish monarchs in the early period of conversion of the Europeans to this form of idolatry to link themselves to [the Christian Messiah] because the Church claimed he was related to David HaMelekh [The King]. This persisted into the Renaissance when increasingly  claims of European Jewishness were made, but as part of the desire to usurp the claim of Jews to being the Chosen Nation.

Brit-Am Replies:
Tell me more TG.
We are interested in any claims  "of European
Jewishness" that were made.
We know that the Irish, Finnish, Swedes, Danes, Dutch (of
Frissia), expressly made such claims in at least one of their sources. Amongst others such as the English, Scottish, Welsh, French, Goths, there are strong indications that such beliefs were also once held.
We know that more beliefs in Israelite Origin were held than we have recorded and would like to know about them.
You probably do not have such information and may be bluffing as is your wont. On the other hand even if you did have such information you would be loath to give it to us because you have a nasty selfish streak in you which is unbecoming to a scholar.

TG wrote:
It is from this that the theory of Europeans as 'the lost tribes' was born, and that you picked up on. However, there was little proof for this because there was a competitive idea of European supremacy based on the ideas of Ancient idolatry (mythology) emanating from Scandinavia and mostly Sweden. This begun with the supremacy of the Swedes under Gustavus Adolphus, and reached its peak in the later part fo the 19th century when it became the genesis of virulent Antisemitism in France and later Germany.

At least four naviim [Prophets] speak of the enemy coming from the north, but most, like yourself, assumed it was Germany or Soviet Union. In fact the enemy was far more insidious, providing the ideology that for centuries sought to exterminate the very idea of Torah in the minds of Europeans while remaining seemingly innocent. Shechita [Jewish Ritual Animal Slaughter] was forbidden in Sweden and Norway before it was forbidden in Nazi Germany, and both countries, as well as Iceland, still forbid it. The other countries that forbid shechita are Finland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania (the last in Europe to convert to Christianity); Switzerland permits shechita for poultry only. Needless to say Finland was one of the most active supporters of Nazi war effort during WW2 and the Baltic states committed war crimes against Jews, and were first among the other nations in recruiting for the Waffen SS.  Switzerland, that claimed to have helped many Jews to escape Germany, was later revealed to have been the banker to the war criminals, holding in its territory many funds and much property stolen from the Jews of Europe.

Brit-Am Replies:
You have a point in part TG, but only in part.  Finland was an ally of Germany in WW2 because she had been attacked by Russia. This was after the outbreak of World War 2 before Russia entered the war. At that stage Russia was an ally of Germany and they had just divided Poland between them. Churchill at the time was strongly in favor of attacking Russia on behalf of Finland even though Britain was already at war with Germany. He did not. Germany ended up attacking Russia which suddenly became our ally even though its conflict with Finland had not been resolved. The Finns had allowed eight [or eleven?] of its Jewish citizens to be taken by the Germans. They were killed. The Finnish public was outraged. Marshall Mannerheim, head of the Finnish Forces, threatened to use the Finnish Army against the Germans if any more of the Jews of Finland were victimized. Later the Finns established the Kibbutz, Gan HaShemoneh (Garden of the Eight), in Israel in memory of the eight Jews from Finland who had been taken.
Concerning the Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), Brit-Am does not count them amongst the nations who may be defined as Israelite.
Concerning Switzerland, there really was and still is much anti-Semitism. The situation however is not so black and white. Switzerland alongside anti-Jewish actions and sentiments also has a pro-Jewish pro-Israeli tradition that has been more important than is realized.

[TG Quotes from Brit-Am]

"I think you are obnoxious TG because you are offensive, insulting, and criminally irresponsible in your statements."

TG wrote:

lol....you are bombastic :)
Insulting someone in public is assur d'oriter [Forbidden by the Torah], and yet, you, a self-claimed orthodox Jew had no qualms in doing so though I never asked you to publish my emails to you. Whether anyone else knows my true name is immaterial.

Brit-Am Replies:
We told you in advance that all e-mails sent by you are liable to be published. You received the letter and commented on it. Everything from you published in this series, "The Great Tartan Disputation", was sent by you after you had received the notice that we would publish it if we so wished.

Concerning the insults, you entered the boxing ring swinging away with blows that could be dangerous if we did not parry them. You also attempt now and again to hit us below the belt. We have employed moderate restraining force and now you are complaining!
If you cannot take it, TG, do not try to dish it out.

[TG Quoting Brit-Am]

I [i.e. TG] "said worse things about our humble poor benighted selves and we published them."?

TG wrote:

 ...oh spare me the theatrics lol. Why do you keep referring to yourself in plural? Do you know that benighted means "1. lacking cultural, moral, or intellectual enlightenment; ignorant"?

Brit-Am Replies:
There we go again.

[TG Quoting Brit-Am]

"Brit-Am has done much good in many, many ways."

TG wrote:

 - like what? And don't tell me that you have brought to light that Scots are related to Yosef HaTzadik [Joseph the Rightous] :)

Brit-Am Replies:
Well they are. The Scottish and other peoples from the British Isles including their offshoots overseas are to a Biblically significant degree descended from Joseph. Bringing this fact to public attention is a great and noble endeavor for which you should be grateful.

[TG Quoting Brit-Am]

"First of all it is the truth."

TG wrote:

- 1. truth - a fact that has been verified - it seems to me that you have a way to go in verifying your many falsifiable statements (Philos. designating or of a statement, theory, etc. that is so formulated as to permit empirical testing and, therefore, can be shown to be false) There is no critical examination anywhere in your website of your one book that I have, and you would not allow critical examination of even one aspect of your assertions which ought to have been approached from a more critical point of view, if even for logical reasons. The statement that you make is therefore not worth the keystrokes used to write it, hence I copy and pasted it :) Fell insulted? Let me tell you that when I read your website, I feel my intelligence insulted at every page.

Brit-Am Replies:
But you keep coming back, do you not TG? Time and time again. Are you a masochist?
If you think we are wrong show us where.
We publish criticisms and answer them. If you have a valid argument we will post it. If on some detail or other we have made a mistake we will admit it.
What are you afraid of?

TG wrote:
Since it is only 'truth' based on your pronouncement of it as such, how it affects many other people is best described by lifnei iver lo sitten michshol [Before a blind man do not place a stumbling-block].

[TG Quoting Brit-Am]
"The Almighty reveals HIMSELF in the Bible."?

TG wrote:

No, He reveals it in the Torah - b'ktav [Written] and b'al'peh [Oral Law i.e. transmitted by tradition]. For every statement made from the former, you need at least three from the later. Then, maybe, you will start to understand.

Brit-Am Replies:
Is this something new TG? A new doctrine? You have insulted the Sages and the Oral Tradition yet still keep coming back with assertions in their name but which they would not have agreed with.

TG wrote:

However, I think you are by now so convinced that every part of your theory is unquestionably true that you are incapable of being honest with yourself. TG

Brit-Am Replies:
At the beginning TG this was all entertaining. Your antics were amusing. We benefited from sparring with you and the audience enjoyed it. Now however, you must be getting tired. Your performance is deteriorating. Shape up lest it be necessary to close the exhibition down.

Truth is what is true and such is the Brit-Am Message.

Continued in Round Seven.

The Great Tartan Disputation
Round One.
Round Two.
Round Three.
Round Four.
Round Five.
Round Six. See Above
Round Seven.
Discussion and Queries.

Joseph and the Scottish Tartan

Detailed List of Contents
1. Introduction.
2. The Term.
3. Tartan Type Patterns and the Area of Ancient Israel
4. David Rohl, Joseph, and Tartan Cloak.
5. Scottish Tartan and the Temple Garments.
6. Tartan in Ancient Times.
7. Tartan from the British Isles in Masada, of Judah.
8. Tartan in Scotland
9. Tartan in Ireland
10. Tartan in Ulster
Part One. Welcome to Ulster.
Part Two: Titanic Tartans and Clifford Smyth.
The Great Tartan Disputation.
Discussion and Queries.


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